Mojang chat report

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
1) as a server platform, we're generally not picking a side and just opting to remain in the center, ofc, while some individuals around the team are for this system, some are also not as favourable of it, but, this isn't the first time we've decided not to add such types of botchery to the server which can easily be handled by plugins (which already exist), and will deal with the burden of ensuring that such a thing will work as expected, especially with vanillas own built in formatting stuff and all that crud. We'd rather just ensure that support exists for servers which want to use it, and let individuals disable it using plugins or whatever, we wanna focus on API and fixing things.

2) The GDPR argument is a weird one, nobody here is a lawyer so literally everything here is purely pissing in the wind to try to find an argument. I'm far from a GDPR pro, but, to my understanding

a) The server is purely a processor of data here, it's only routing and formatting messages, it's not producing them, so it's likely 100% irrelevant here that a server which is not directly in the hands of mojang exists within the routing of messages here, given that you are using mojangs platform and under their legal agreements, etc; It's not clear where much of this is going down the line, many entities are requiring that platforms step up on moderation

b) Messages you as a user send over the network on these platforms, to my understanding, is not considered personal information, and as such is generally not privy to the GDPR and it's restrictions, this is why many sites will just anonomise information like usernames, while still keeping the users actual content online

c) even if B wasn't true, it's likely that this would be covered under the exemptions to consent, i.e. the legal obligation towards platforms to report certain activities

ofc, all of this would need to go through several dozen lawyers, of which I'm not interested in paying for a consultation for over a block game, (if people think that there is an actual GDPR argument against this here, feel free to create a pot somewhere and hire a lawyer), but, things like the EUs digital services act creates a lot of headaches here as to determine how much of it applies to Mojang and in particular 3rd party services, many governments have been stepping up, or at least talking about, the requirements for platforms to implement moderation tools and all that jazz, intentionally disabling this thing could actually have legal implications down the line, but, that's purely speculation on my current understanding of what's going on here; ofc, only time (or a bunch of money being thrown to a lawyer) will tell
ofc , just feels like its a GDPR thing , i aint no lawyer either. Wouldnt be the first time microsoft violated that. Hence why i asked it here , surely there must be someone with an understanding of GDPR and can determin if this violates it or not.

Also my servers are in germany and they are very serious when it comes to this stuff ( i aint german myself , cheap servers in germany ) So im curious
 
  • Like
Reactions: killermantv

killermantv

New member
Aug 17, 2022
8
0
1
ofc , just feels like its a GDPR thing , i aint no lawyer either. Wouldnt be the first time microsoft violated that. Hence why i asked it here , surely there must be someone with an understanding of GDPR and can determin if this violates it or not.

Also my servers are in germany and they are very serious when it comes to this stuff ( i aint german myself , cheap servers in germany ) So im curious
It definitely affects microsoft or these projects that distributes any piece of software, as it is content generated on a certain server that is sent to a different entity without any official option to "opt out", or other stuff that comes with GDPR as copy of your data or right for erasure, which is completely required by GDPR as it is not any financial data.
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
well know shortly i send the question about the GDPR to my service providor ( hetzner ) , they should be able to tell me if this violates any GDPR regulations. They have a GDPR officer , thats handy isnt it . and knowing hetzner anal position on any violations im sure it will be accurate :p
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org

This has been requested since 2018. Many people supports the feature.
A lot of people who are against this change argue that "no one asked for the feature". But this is just not true.

So by your logic because there are a few servers which they dont name so we cannot verify this story to be true , it has been requested? Not one server owner i know supports this chat report feature because all server owners i know have chat rules , plugins and staff to ban the people who use foul language. They do not even specify what type of language that offends them. For european players some language isnt offensive but would be considerd highly offensive in the united states.

There are so many regional specifics into play here that is why leaving moderation up to the specific server is prefered to a global sollution. The example you gave is so generic in nature. There are so many issues with chat reporting on itself , let alone the need for it. Ill tell you the REAL need for this thing. sales. A banned user will either buy or crack another minecraft account so in best case they get another sale , better case two more sales.

Java doesnt have a market place therefore it doesnt generate the same revenue as bedrock , this feature will boost java sales & remove hacked accounts as those will be banned.

And to offensive builds ? this chat report feature doesnt even touch that. So much for making it "kids" safe

Also plugins like mcbans introduced a global ban list , people were like i dont trust another server owner's ban , but you would trust mojang moderation team blindly? Mcbans had no special intrest in banning a person rather then protecting the people who use it , same cannot be said about mojang when a banned user can simply buy a new account.....

You do see the levels of flawed logic which makes this chat report feature useless right?
 
Last edited:

mbaxter

Cat Wrangler
Staff member
Dec 14, 2021
6
1
3
over there
So by your logic because there are a few servers which they dont name so we cannot verify this story to be true , it has been requested? Not one server owner i know supports this chat report feature because all server owners i know have chat rules , plugins and staff to ban the people who use foul language.

Minecraft server operator since the first week of SMP in 2010. This feature should have happened a decade ago.

We had chat rules, we banned for abhorrent stuff. And those users would just go to another server and cause trouble.

But this is about catching and stopping people who do really messed up stuff, like death threats, grooming, hate speech, etc., from being able to just hop to another server and harm more people. Plus, this prevents bad actors who are staff on a server, abusing their power to harm users who join.

They do not even specify what type of language that offends them. For european players some language isnt offensive but would be considerd highly offensive in the united states.

Mojang has actually made it incredibly clear what is a problem. Here's one help entry on it: https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition

As for words being contextual, like maybe that 3 letter word still occasionally used in the UK for a cigarette, that's what the chat reports sending context are for. Plus the word would be pretty clear contextually in the single message written.

There are so many issues with chat reporting on itself , let alone the need for it. Ill tell you the REAL need for this thing. sales. A banned user will either buy or crack another minecraft account so in best case they get another sale , better case two more sales.

Java doesnt have a market place therefore it doesnt generate the same revenue as bedrock , this feature will boost java sales & remove hacked accounts as those will be banned.

This is a weird conspiracy theory I've seen come up a few times. The number of bad actors buying new accounts is barely going to make up for the Mojang salary time spent designing, developing, and public relationing this feature. Makes no sense for the size of Mojang let alone Microsoft.

And to offensive builds ? this chat report feature doesnt even touch that. So much for making it "kids" safe

This is a system for protecting against chat abuse. It isn't relevant to anything about offensive builds, nor does it need to be.

Also plugins like mcbans introduced a global ban list , people were like i dont trust another server owner's ban , but you would trust mojang moderation team blindly? Mcbans had no special intrest in banning a person rather then protecting the people who use it , same cannot be said about mojang when a banned user can simply buy a new account.....

Weirdly enough plenty of large services (e.g. xbox live) have successfully run chat reporting systems without significant complaint for a very long time. I don't see how this will be any different.

You do see the levels of flawed logic which makes this chat report feature useless right?

No.
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
Minecraft server operator since the first week of SMP in 2010. This feature should have happened a decade ago.

We had chat rules, we banned for abhorrent stuff. And those users would just go to another server and cause trouble.

But this is about catching and stopping people who do really messed up stuff, like death threats, grooming, hate speech, etc., from being able to just hop to another server and harm more people. Plus, this prevents bad actors who are staff on a server, abusing their power to harm users who join.



Mojang has actually made it incredibly clear what is a problem. Here's one help entry on it: https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition

As for words being contextual, like maybe that 3 letter word still occasionally used in the UK for a cigarette, that's what the chat reports sending context are for. Plus the word would be pretty clear contextually in the single message written.



This is a weird conspiracy theory I've seen come up a few times. The number of bad actors buying new accounts is barely going to make up for the Mojang salary time spent designing, developing, and public relationing this feature. Makes no sense for the size of Mojang let alone Microsoft.



This is a system for protecting against chat abuse. It isn't relevant to anything about offensive builds, nor does it need to be.



Weirdly enough plenty of large services (e.g. xbox live) have successfully run chat reporting systems without significant complaint for a very long time. I don't see how this will be any different.



No.
  • Defamation, impersonation, false information.
      • Someone is damaging someone else's reputation, pretending to be someone they're not, or sharing false information with the aim to exploit or mislead others.
So if i ban user A for hacking and his friend asks me why and i reply for hacking and he sends a report to mojang it could fall under defamation. Why would mojang take the word of a server owner over a user.....

or worse :

  • Drugs or alcohol.
      • Someone is encouraging others to partake in illegal drug related activities or encouraging underage drinking.
The legal drinking age in my country is 14 , So if i talk to someone from my own country to have a beer and it gets reported ...... Its not underage drinking

Again proving that regional diffirences in laws do NOT work with a GLOBAL ruleset.

There are so many issues with chat reporting on itself , let alone the need for it. Ill tell you the REAL need for this thing. sales. A banned user will either buy or crack another minecraft account so in best case they get another sale , better case two more sales.

Java doesnt have a market place therefore it doesnt generate the same revenue as bedrock , this feature will boost java sales & remove hacked accounts as those will be banned.

You claim that a few banned players buying accounts wont make a diffirence? Your right HOWEVER : they will step up their game to obtain as many java accounts as possible and those will get banned to leaving hundreds of people without a minecraft account because it got hacked & banned. We have seen this with team AVO back in the day .

I admit stealing a minecraft account has gotten harder but its not impossible and if you state its because there are so many younger users then that also means there are alot of young users who will download just about anything that is shiny.....

so they will most likely buy a new account after it got hacked & banned VS appealing the ban cause they got "hacked" . And with the ammount of non vanilla clients out there Mojang will say that their accounts wont be unbanned if they use a diffirent client then the vanilla... That is not a conspiracy but logical thinking and it has alot of merrit.

and ps i was also there in 2010 , perhaps you dont recognize my name perhaps this will refresh your memory : https://bukkit.org/members/unimatrix.10/
 
Last edited:

sen

New member
Aug 19, 2022
3
1
3
So by your logic because there are a few servers which they dont name so we cannot verify this story to be true , it has been requested? Not one server owner i know supports this chat report feature because all server owners i know have chat rules , plugins and staff to ban the people who use foul language. They do not even specify what type of language that offends them. For european players some language isnt offensive but would be considerd highly offensive in the united states.

There are so many regional specifics into play here that is why leaving moderation up to the specific server is prefered to a global sollution. The example you gave is so generic in nature. There are so many issues with chat reporting on itself , let alone the need for it. Ill tell you the REAL need for this thing. sales. A banned user will either buy or crack another minecraft account so in best case they get another sale , better case two more sales.

Java doesnt have a market place therefore it doesnt generate the same revenue as bedrock , this feature will boost java sales & remove hacked accounts as those will be banned.

And to offensive builds ? this chat report feature doesnt even touch that. So much for making it "kids" safe

Also plugins like mcbans introduced a global ban list , people were like i dont trust another server owner's ban , but you would trust mojang moderation team blindly? Mcbans had no special intrest in banning a person rather then protecting the people who use it , same cannot be said about mojang when a banned user can simply buy a new account.....

You do see the levels of flawed logic which makes this chat report feature useless right?
You trust Mojang with your credit card to buy the game. You trust them with your data, but not how they handle chat reporting?

This is nothing like mcbans. This is Mojang themselves. It is a conspiracy thinking that somehow the little money they make from the miniscule amount of bad actors buying alts would put them in some financial advantage when they got a multi billion dollar company Microsoft behind them.

Java generates a large amount of content, most content creators play Java Edition. It also is an invalid argument now that Java and Bedrock come together as a package. If they're are trying to get "more money", they wouldn't be doing this.

Claiming "a few servers which can't be verified" is the same as saying "I know no one asked". You're just invalidating the other side of the argument just because your personal experience don't reflect it. Maybe people aren't as vocal in supporting it because Youtubers, and "the majority" is loudly claiming how bad this feature is?

Mojang just can't win. Migrate to Microsoft accounts for better security/features? Evil because they force us to use Microsoft. But sure, blame them for hacked accounts and stolen accounts. Your examples are unrealistic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mbaxter

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
You trust Mojang with your credit card to buy the game. You trust them with your data, but not how they handle chat reporting?

This is nothing like mcbans. This is Mojang themselves. It is a conspiracy thinking that somehow the little money they make from the miniscule amount of bad actors buying alts would put them in some financial advantage when they got a multi billion dollar company Microsoft behind them.

I did not buy minecraft using a credit card, and there is no comparison between game data & financial data. If mojang would leak or missuse financial data they be in a lot of deep shit so that comparison does not work.

Ok you fail to grasp the logic behind it so ill write it out for you

1) hackers/spammer gets banned
2) hacker/spammer releases a "hacked/modified client"
3) 12 year olds across the globe download said "hacked/modified client"
4) hacker/spammer hacks minecraft account and goes on a rampage
5) those account get banned
6) 12 year old either appeals and will fail cause using a "hacked client" is against minecraft TOS , and the hacked account i doubt will be enough of an arguement for an unban

STEP 7 : 12 year old buys another account

This is NOTHING new , it has been happening for years with thousands of accounts.......... Now tell me that this wont generate income , ill wait.

Java generates a large amount of content, most content creators play Java Edition. It also is an invalid argument now that Java and Bedrock come together as a package. If they're are trying to get "more money", they wouldn't be doing this.

Who states that bedrock and java would come together , they are writen in diffirent languages......
Claiming "a few servers which can't be verified" is the same as saying "I know no one asked". You're just invalidating the other side of the argument just because your personal experience don't reflect it. Maybe people aren't as vocal in supporting it because Youtubers, and "the majority" is loudly claiming how bad this feature is?

Mojang just can't win. Migrate to Microsoft accounts for better security/features? Evil because they force us to use Microsoft. But sure, blame them for hacked accounts and stolen accounts. Your examples are unrealistic.

The point was , that report on the mojang website was as generic as it can be. Were they playing on 2b2t ? were they playing on a decent server? we dont know and crying about offensive messages without giving specifics is like filing a bug report and saying it dont work.

Mojang has actually made it incredibly clear what is a problem. Here's one help entry on it: https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition

As for words being contextual, like maybe that 3 letter word still occasionally used in the UK for a cigarette, that's what the chat reports sending context are for. Plus the word would be pretty clear contextually in the single message written.

"My daughter and I are Minecraft fans and use it to spend quality time together. We love the games and Minecraft servers. Recently we noticed people creating or using blocks to write or build curse words and inappropriate content for kids. It's very upsetting and has to be taken care of. I don't know how it would be done but it has to be. There should be a way for us to report players that are creating an unsafe environment for kids and families. This is one of the reasons we took away Roblox from our computers."

Thats the quote from the report. Notice the LACK of chat but the ABUNDANCE of : Recently we noticed people creating or using blocks to write or build curse words and inappropriate content for kids.

For that report on itself , it has no sources so it cant be verified. If you are gona use a report like that please make sure it pertains to chat and not building.
 

sen

New member
Aug 19, 2022
3
1
3
For that report on itself , it has no sources so it cant be verified. If you are gona use a report like that please make sure it pertains to chat and not building.
It was meant to show that there are people asking for moderation from Mojang themselves, since many servers can't afford or fail to do so.

The comments show a lot of mentions regarding chat, which get a lot of votes.

You can't argue that because it doesn't stop something completely that it shouldn't be implemented. If so, laws wouldn't be a thing.
 

mineaftchest1

New member
Aug 30, 2022
1
0
1
I just thought that I would give my two cents on the topic. From what I have read in this thread, there seems to be a slight misunderstanding of the way that chat reporting works.I am basing this off what I read in the help page linked above.

This applies to Minecraft Java Edition and only Minecraft Java Edition. Minecraft Bedrock Edition (Windows 10 edition, mobile versions, console versions) is irrelevant here.

Mojang only sees chat your chat message when it is reported to them manually by a player. Mojang does not see all chat messages that you see. They wil only see chat messages when another player on the server you sent the message on reports it. If you are on a private server and you send chat message XYZ, mojang will not see that chat message assuming everyone logged onto the server at the time you sent the message is fine with you sending that message and therefore does not report the message.

When Mojang sees a reported message, they will read the reported message and srounding messages that were sent with the report. They will then use that reported information and, using the criteria published at https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition, decide weither action should be taken. IF Mojang decides that action should be taken, they will suspend your account temperarly. I have reason to believe that you would get notified by Mojang if your account was suspended, with the reasons why, and with instructions on how to appeal if you believe that you were unfairly punished.

Mojang says In this help article that account suspension will block online game play, otherwise known as multiplayer on your account. I do not know wiether or nor this is enforced through the client or the server. However, singleplayer gameplay should not be blocked.

Personally, I have no reason to dislike this feature at the present time. My opinion may change given information to the contrary.

Disclaimer: I am not a Mojang employee. The information above, should not be treated as a source of truth. All information has been hatjered from https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition or is personal speculation or opinion that should not be treated as fact. Please read this article and any other offical sources of information if you have any questions about the information above. All viewpoints shared above are my own and may not represent the viewpoints of others.
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
I just thought that I would give my two cents on the topic. From what I have read in this thread, there seems to be a slight misunderstanding of the way that chat reporting works.I am basing this off what I read in the help page linked above.

This applies to Minecraft Java Edition and only Minecraft Java Edition. Minecraft Bedrock Edition (Windows 10 edition, mobile versions, console versions) is irrelevant here.

Mojang only sees chat your chat message when it is reported to them manually by a player. Mojang does not see all chat messages that you see. They wil only see chat messages when another player on the server you sent the message on reports it. If you are on a private server and you send chat message XYZ, mojang will not see that chat message assuming everyone logged onto the server at the time you sent the message is fine with you sending that message and therefore does not report the message.

When Mojang sees a reported message, they will read the reported message and srounding messages that were sent with the report. They will then use that reported information and, using the criteria published at https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition, decide weither action should be taken. IF Mojang decides that action should be taken, they will suspend your account temperarly. I have reason to believe that you would get notified by Mojang if your account was suspended, with the reasons why, and with instructions on how to appeal if you believe that you were unfairly punished.

Mojang says In this help article that account suspension will block online game play, otherwise known as multiplayer on your account. I do not know wiether or nor this is enforced through the client or the server. However, singleplayer gameplay should not be blocked.

Personally, I have no reason to dislike this feature at the present time. My opinion may change given information to the contrary.

Disclaimer: I am not a Mojang employee. The information above, should not be treated as a source of truth. All information has been hatjered from https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition or is personal speculation or opinion that should not be treated as fact. Please read this article and any other offical sources of information if you have any questions about the information above. All viewpoints shared above are my own and may not represent the viewpoints of others.

I am well aware of how it works , and nobody here mentioned that its a spy tool like you implied in the post above. And account suspension isnt "temporary" lol , looks like a bot post ngl.
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
When someone doesn’t follow our community standards, it is possible that their account will get suspended. If your account has been suspended and you would like more information, please submit a review via this link, or scroll to the bottom of any page in our Help Center and select 'Case Review' to send a ticket to the appropriate team.

Please tell me where it sais temp bans...... ill wait
 

MiniDigger

Drunk German 🍺
Staff member
Dec 14, 2021
28
16
3
25
Cologne, Germany
benndorf.dev
When someone doesn’t follow our community standards, it is possible that their account will get suspended. If your account has been suspended and you would like more information, please submit a review via this link, or scroll to the bottom of any page in our Help Center and select 'Case Review' to send a ticket to the appropriate team.

Please tell me where it sais temp bans...... ill wait
If action is taken, the offending player’s account is suspended from online play for some duration of time or in extreme cases permanently
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
Last Updated - 2022-08-30 12:55:02 UTC lol , starting to look like they updated it and using bot accounts to post information about it. Cause who ever signs their post with :

"Disclaimer: I am not a Mojang employee. The information above, should not be treated as a source of truth. All information has been hatjered from https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us...81-Player-Reporting-in-Minecraft-Java-Edition or is personal speculation or opinion that should not be treated as fact. Please read this article and any other offical sources of information if you have any questions about the information above. All viewpoints shared above are my own and may not represent the viewpoints of others."
 

unimatrix999

New member
Jul 7, 2022
11
3
3
bukkit.org
That part was literally there since the begging, I am pretty sure. Go check archive.org if you care, lol. you just didn't read it correctly.
So you believe they will issue a temp ban for encouraging self harm or racism? None of the bannable reasons are "temp ban worthy"...... The only ones that could be considerd that are :

  • Harassment or bullying.
      • Someone is shaming, attacking, or bullying you or someone else. This includes when someone is repeatedly trying to contact you or someone else without consent or posting private personal information about you or someone else without consent (“doxing”).
  • Defamation, impersonation, false information.
      • Someone is damaging someone else's reputation, pretending to be someone they're not, or sharing false information with the aim to exploit or mislead others.
Cause of the subjective nature. So yeah temp bans , if you are that naive well then you are :p
 

MiniDigger

Drunk German 🍺
Staff member
Dec 14, 2021
28
16
3
25
Cologne, Germany
benndorf.dev
So you believe they will issue a temp ban for encouraging self harm or racism? None of the bannable reasons are "temp ban worthy"...... The only ones that could be considerd that are :

  • Harassment or bullying.
      • Someone is shaming, attacking, or bullying you or someone else. This includes when someone is repeatedly trying to contact you or someone else without consent or posting private personal information about you or someone else without consent (“doxing”).
  • Defamation, impersonation, false information.
      • Someone is damaging someone else's reputation, pretending to be someone they're not, or sharing false information with the aim to exploit or mislead others.
Cause of the subjective nature. So yeah temp bans , if you are that naive well then you are :p
See, I choose to stick to facts and you choose to just make up bullshit, if you wanna call me naive, go ahead, lol
 

TrOpHiiE

New member
Oct 15, 2022
5
0
1
Hey! I am really new to forums, so I tried to find rules didn't find any, so I hope its allowed to post on a thread after such a long time? Sorry in advance if this isn't or is seen as something you just don't do. Anyways I don't wanna be hostile to anyone, I only want to give my personal opinion. Which is the purpose of this thread.

I think papermc should try to (bypass) mojang's chat report system.

Because it was literally never needed. I never heard anyone before this update screaming for a chat report system from mojang that would ban ur account from all online activities. Because this idea was seen as absurd and still should be seen like that. Nobody even thought of this!
Trying to defend this system by using a really extreme example (extreme doesn't mean its not a valid example) just shows that its really hard to get any arguments in favor of this system without going to the extreme. But Mojang tries to make the ban reasons as interpretable as possible, so they always have a valid reason, this shows that this system wasn't only implemented to handle the worst cases, but to actively moderate minecraft. Which as said before never was needed or has any reason to exist without going to the most extreme.

Another strong argument is that, the vast majority of people don't want this system because they also see this as something that's complety out of place and not useful at all. (That the negatives outweigh the positives)

I also heard many people using the argument that "company now need to do that", even though not entirely true even if it were, we (the community or rather the maintainers of papermc) don't need to follow these rules.

One of the strongest if not the strongest argument is that every server has it's own moderators and rules. And maybe something is acceptable on one server and not on the other. And what was the solution? Everyone could moderate their own servers and noone had a problem with that. But now Mojang stepped in for whatever reason, they don't know what the players are doing, maybe they are even roleplaying, maybe its a group of friends just joking around. Or it's a Anarchy server where this stuff is typical especially profanity (2b2t)

(I really dislike the opinion that mojang did this to control the playerbase and destroy everything. I don't believe it goes that deep. mojang just tried something and sticked with it. I don't think they have the intention of actively taking away control of the game. I still hate it tho that they implemented this system in the first place)

I also have one question to the developers or/and maintainers of papermc. What speaks against bypassing mojang's chat report system? It won't really cause any harm. Maybe you guys just don't want to change "core" functionalities of minecraft and let the player choose if they want to implement it or not. Then maybe just do it like mojang but in reverse. Every server should default disable this system, but it can easily be turned on if the server owner chooses to do so. I mean Mojang has basically done the same thing but it just being default enabled instead of disasbled. I also believe every big mod (especially optifine) should do it like that.

My conclusion : I think papermc should try to disable mojang's chat report system. Because every server has it's own rules and it's own playerbase. Nobody wanted this or even had the idea of a chat report system that would hand out punishments that disable all of your online activities. This was just unheard of and for good reason. Papermc should default disable this system but make it easy to enable it.
 

Andre_601

New member
Feb 8, 2022
15
3
3
Because it was literally never needed. I never heard anyone before this update screaming for a chat report system from mojang that would ban ur account from all online activities. Because this idea was seen as absurd and still should be seen like that. Nobody even thought of this!
Trying to defend this system by using a really extreme example (extreme doesn't mean its not a valid example) just shows that its really hard to get any arguments in favor of this system without going to the extreme. But Mojang tries to make the ban reasons as interpretable as possible, so they always have a valid reason, this shows that this system wasn't only implemented to handle the worst cases, but to actively moderate minecraft. Which as said before never was needed or has any reason to exist without going to the most extreme.
And where is the proof for the oposite case (That it actually wasn't needed)?
Like you claim this now, but do you have actual, clear evidence that there was no grooming, no death threats, no racism, no sexism?
This is nothing that wouldn't happen and stuff like this DID happen... I mean MC was in the news a few years back about a pedophile managing to meet a child through MC... Do you think that was made up?

Another strong argument is that, the vast majority of people don't want this system because they also see this as something that's complety out of place and not useful at all. (That the negatives outweigh the positives)
Again: Proof?
Just saying "The majority doesn't want this" is no proof that this is the case. And don't come with YT videos as they are clearly biased in one direction. The only true proof would be if there was a survey that simply asks "Do you want Chat reporting in Minecraft?".

I also heard many people using the argument that "company now need to do that", even though not entirely true even if it were, we (the community or rather the maintainers of papermc) don't need to follow these rules.
They have to and you need to.
Minecraft is a game owned by Mojang and as such is under their supervision. This isn't some open source sotware like Mastodon that everyone can run for themself (Yes, servers are a thing, but the code still belongs to Mojang).
They are required to have some methods in place to prevent abuse and protect children, because in the end are still children playing this game and not just adults.

One of the strongest if not the strongest argument is that every server has it's own moderators and rules. And maybe something is acceptable on one server and not on the other. And what was the solution? Everyone could moderate their own servers and noone had a problem with that. But now Mojang stepped in for whatever reason, they don't know what the players are doing, maybe they are even roleplaying, maybe its a group of friends just joking around. Or it's a Anarchy server where this stuff is typical especially profanity (2b2t)
I feel like you missunderstand the Chat Reporting with Chat moderation or Chat surveylance.
Mojang can't and won't see every single message you post. This isn't Bedrock Edition where stuff goes through a filter and gets censored. Only when an individual (a player) is filing a chat report against a user are messages send to Mojang. And in such a case only messages that A) have a valid signature (signed by clients and server to be valid) and B) only the reported message and some before (And probs after) it for context reason.

Also, the argument that servers exist where this is "normal" is no justification. Just because some server/people do something doesn't mean it's automagically legal. If that was the case, then drug usage would be legal all over the world, yet here we are seeing people getting punished for it.

Or look at it like this: You can insult your friend IRL. They know you and they simply don't care because they know you don't mean it and make that to joke around... But when you do it to a stranger, they can missunderstand it and feel insulted, resulting in you getting in trouble.
Doing something to your friends doesn't give you a free pass to also do it to everyone else.

I also have one question to the developers or/and maintainers of papermc. What speaks against bypassing mojang's chat report system? It won't really cause any harm. Maybe you guys just don't want to change "core" functionalities of minecraft and let the player choose if they want to implement it or not. Then maybe just do it like mojang but in reverse. Every server should default disable this system, but it can easily be turned on if the server owner chooses to do so. I mean Mojang has basically done the same thing but it just being default enabled instead of disasbled. I also believe every big mod (especially optifine) should do it like that.
I'm not official Paper staff so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe the main reason is responsability and legal stuff.
If Paper would intentionally block/remove the chat report system, Mojang could take them down for sure or at least do a C&D request, as that is breaking their EULA (most likely. I can't say for sure).
Not to mention would Paper get the reputation of allowing groomers, racists, and alike to continue to roam free on the internet without any fear of punishments for their behaviour.
 

TrOpHiiE

New member
Oct 15, 2022
5
0
1
Hey thanks for replying!
And where is the proof for the oposite case (That it actually wasn't needed)?
Like you claim this now, but do you have actual, clear evidence that there was no grooming, no death threats, no racism, no sexism?
This is nothing that wouldn't happen and stuff like this DID happen... I mean MC was in the news a few years back about a pedophile managing to meet a child through MC... Do you think that was made up?
In this case, the proof that it wasn't needed is that it was never wanted. If something was needed people want it. If you need a vaccination you want it right? Something that is wanted, is needed. Something that is needed is wanted. And you making these extreme examples just proves my point that this system can't be argued in favor without going to the extreme. I really don't know how this system makes exploiting children impossible? It doesn't really help aswell? I mean which pedophile is gonna say something that will get him banned? He will try to be manipulative and act innocent. These Imbeciles do that.
Again: Proof?
Just saying "The majority doesn't want this" is no proof that this is the case. And don't come with YT videos as they are clearly biased in one direction. The only true proof would be if there was a survey that simply asks "Do you want Chat reporting in Minecraft?".
Even though the videos show that the vast majority doesn't support it. Let's just use something different. The nochatreport mod has over 2 million downloads. Which is a clear signal that many people don't like it. It's not normal for a mod to get these many downloads in a short amount of time, this only happens if something is needed and wanted! And if a video supports a opinion that is not liked, they will get huge amount of dislikes.
<-- this video supporting the chat report system got more dislikes then likes. So your point is just flat out wrong.

1668685663529.png
Also, the argument that servers exist where this is "normal" is no justification. Just because some server/people do something doesn't mean it's automagically legal. If that was the case, then drug usage would be legal all over the world, yet here we are seeing people getting punished for it.
I mean profanity is legal? You won't get arrested for swearing in minecraft. 2b2t is a great example. I really don't understand your drug usage example. It is clearly missing the point.
I feel like you missunderstand the Chat Reporting with Chat moderation or Chat surveylance.
Mojang can't and won't see every single message you post. This isn't Bedrock Edition where stuff goes through a filter and gets censored. Only when an individual (a player) is filing a chat report against a user are messages send to Mojang. And in such a case only messages that A) have a valid signature (signed by clients and server to be valid) and B) only the reported message and some before (And probs after) it for context reason.
I also don't understand this point. A and B only happens when you disable it, which im arguing for? (so we can dismiss these points) Saying some before and "probably after", how do you know that? We don't know what the mojang moderators get? You could easily abuse this system in a malicious way.
I'm not official Paper staff so take this with a grain of salt, but I believe the main reason is responsability and legal stuff.
If Paper would intentionally block/remove the chat report system, Mojang could take them down for sure or at least do a C&D request, as that is breaking their EULA (most likely. I can't say for sure).
I seriously doubt that. Modifying the minecraft client and enabling adding or disabling features was never really something that mojang discouraged. As far as I know hypixel has disabled chat reporting and they didn't get in any trouble. (I know that they aren't papermc but they are still the biggest minecraft server and should be mentioned). I don't believe that mojang would do anything against a block.

Not to mention would Paper get the reputation of allowing groomers, racists, and alike to continue to roam free on the internet without any fear of punishments for their behaviour.
This one is absurd, sorry. But this is overexagerrated in every possible meaningful way. No one and I repeat no one will say that papermc supports criminals because they disabled minecraft chat report system.
 
Last edited:

Andre_601

New member
Feb 8, 2022
15
3
3
This is honestly the last time I reply because I can see that you're one of these people who have their mind set on something and won't change it, even if I would provide clear evidence to proof the oposite.
Talking with a wall is more constructive than this tbh, so I safe my sanity and time here by making this my final reply.

@Staff I would apreciate if this post could probably be locked (with or without a statement from you) as I (and probably others) can't see a good reason of keeping it active if replies like those from TrOpHiiE are the result. This is just me tho...

In this case, the proof that it wasn't needed is that it was never wanted. If something was needed people want it. If you need a vaccination you want it right? Something that is wanted, is needed. Something that is needed is wanted. And you making these extreme examples just proves my point that this system can't be argued in favor without going to the extreme. I really don't know how this system makes exploiting children impossible? It doesn't really help aswell? I mean which pedophile is gonna say something that will get him banned? He will try to be manipulative and act innocent. These Imbeciles do that.
Children don't want school... does it mean we don't need it?
The argument "Nobody needs it" is a faulty one here, because preventive actions are often needed before bad stuff happens because when it happens you're knee deep in the sh*t, I can tell you that.

Also, funny that you mention vaccines as an example, because there are people that don't want it (Anti-vac people) and also cases where people didn't want/need one... Just look at Covid. I'm sure that at its start nobody was thinking "Oh those people are getting sick... Better demand vaccination!". It only started once it was declared a pandemic.

Next: There are still cases of grooming and alike... And if you think everyone acts innocent you're wrong tbh. Sure, there are people that try to act innocent but there are also those that are more open and direct on such stuff. Also, grooming isn't the only thing here. Death threats are always something nobody wants and you can't be safe enough with those, as so many cases showed in the past what happens if you're not taking them seriously... And yes, I'm aware of pvp-related messages like that, but that's what the context stuff is for (more on that in a bit).

Even though the videos show that the vast majority doesn't support it. Let's just use something different. The nochatreport mod has over 2 million downloads. Which is a clear signal that many people don't like it. It's not normal for a mod to get these many downloads in a short amount of time, this only happens if something is needed and wanted! And if a video supports a opinion that is not liked, they will get huge amount of dislikes.
Large amounts of downloads don't result in a automatic "Everyone hates/likes this" situation. Same goes for videos and ESPECIALLY those... Ever heard of a hate train? Or dislike bombing?
Like, if you believe someone is right based on like/dislike ratio, then this Reddit post by u/maryatid must be the absolute truth as it has 37.2k Upvotes, despite it being a bunch of fabricated lies and false claims.

You shouldn't trust a lot of things on YouTube only because the like/dislike ratio is a certain things... Due to how communities like to bandwaggon is a video easily dislike-bombed just because one YouTuber asked his fans to dislike it... I mean imagine PewDiePie asking people to like/dislike a specific video.... It would probs result in never seen rates.

I mean profanity is legal? You won't get arrested for swearing in minecraft. 2b2t is a great example. I really don't understand your drug usage example. It is clearly missing the point.
It's not really. If you insult a police officer, you get fined. And nobody has to accept being insulted by others and can take legal actions... Granted going to court because someone said the N-Word to you would be an extreme thing, but most if not all civilized countries have laws in place that give you protection and rights against harassment of any kind.

Also, regarding the drug usage thing. I just couldn't think of a better example here in the short amount of time I have.
My point was that you basically argued that something is normal/not bad because people do it, to which I came up with the response that drugs are also fine because a lot of people do that too.

Just because a lot of people use/do/have something doesn't make it a legal right... It's like with games... Just because a game got bought x million times doesn't mean it's awesome.
Or to give a hard, but true example that shows how ridicoulus this "x people do it -> Good" argument is "Thousands of people have Aids... This must be good then!"

I also don't understand this point. A and B only happens when you disable it, which im arguing for? (so we can dismiss these points) Saying some before and "probably after", how do you know that? We don't know what the mojang moderators get? You could easily abuse this system in a malicious way.
No. A and B happen WHEN it is enabled... Disabling it will disable chat signing which also makes it possible for fabricating messages by manipulating them. That's why chat reports are disabled when chat signing is too.

Also, you have the right to check Minecraft's source code. They can't stop you from checking it and Mojang even provides official mappings to deobfuscate the code. That way can you check what content is sent to Mojang.
I can't see the issue or "potential of abuse" here tho... Unless there is a way to manipulate the messages before they are send (Which there isn't due to chat signing) will only the reported messages and those comming before it be sent. When I recall it correctly will the amount be a random one (in a specific range), but it will be more than enough to the context in which this message was send clear.

Again, if you want exact numbers, be my guest and check Minecraft's source code as the chat report system is right there in the game. It's not on some external server.

I seriously doubt that. Modifying the minecraft client and enabling adding or disabling features was never really something that mojang discouraged. As far as I know hypixel has disabled chat reporting and they didn't get in any trouble. (I know that they aren't papermc but they are still the biggest minecraft server and should be mentioned). I don't believe that mojang would do anything against a block.
I can't recall Mojang allowing people to distribute their MC client with mods directly build into it. There's a reason Mod loader and separate mod jars exist, as distributing the modified client or server jar is not allowed. Mojang simply didn't care so far to really take actions because legal stuff is expensive and time consuming.

Also, please stop using Hypixel as a go-to excuse for something being okay... They are a multi-million (I assume?) business. They have actual direct connections to Mojang, if not even people from Mojang working with them. Like they do contact Mojang regularely to ask if something they want to do is okay in a legal sense.
Comparing it to a GitHub organisation and Discord community about a software that patches the MC server and allows plugin support is... bad to put it simple.
And to my knowledge is Hypixel still using MC 1.8 as base because "PeRFormANcE".

If Paper would intentionally disable/remove/block the report system, then they would attrackt those people that want to hide from it or profit from the lack of such a system which would again cause more issues, conflicts and alike. In the end would Paper earn a bad reputation which in the worst case could get Mojang to take actions.
 

MiniDigger

Drunk German 🍺
Staff member
Dec 14, 2021
28
16
3
25
Cologne, Germany
benndorf.dev
Because it was literally never needed. I never heard anyone before this update screaming for a chat report system
That argument makes zero sense. By that definition we should also remove camels from 1.20 because nobody ever asked for them, lol
Plenty people asked for better moderation tools for ages, central ban systems like mcbans were attempted multiple times, it's good that Mojang finally took the initiative.


I didn't bother reading the rest cause I highly doubt there are is anything new, and tbh, I thought people just accepted this...
Paper will not remove or hinder this in any way, in fact, we worked hard to make sure plugins have the possibility to support this system, if they so wish.
But, we will also not stop you from installing plugins that disable this system.

Server admins have the choice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andre_601