Mojang chat report

Mondbrille

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Hello everyone,

i don't like the new mojang chat report system, so here are my thoughts.

If i investigated it correctly, since 1.19 there are two new fields in the ClientboundPlayerChatPacket: timeStamp and saltSignature. I think these fields are used for identification and verification of the player written chat messages.

However, these fields aren't in ClientboundSystemChatPacket. If the server cancels every player message and sends the content as a system message, the client would think it is a system message and it will not be able to be reported.

Is this correct or does anybody have more detailled and eventually proved information about the mojang chat report system?
 

MiniDigger

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yes.
however, in the future, the client might reject such messages, there is already a client setting that comes close to this.
fighting mojang is never a good idea, you will loose.
the decided that they want to improve the player safety (and I and many others agree with them), so we will see more work in this area, especially if people circumvent the system.

not that any legitimate player has anything to fear, the only people that are are angry are scared about this because they have been terrorizing the community forever and rightfully fear finally having to face consequences for their actions.
 

Straight Up Anarchy

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The response from MiniDigger is disappointing, and IMO totally out of touch with everyone I've seen talking about this. Just browse the reddit /r/admincraft or /r/minecraft threads on the subject and you'll see the vast majority of players (including so-called "legitimate" players) are completely against this.

Some servers allow profanity. Others don't. Mojang doesn't have the staff to moderate the chats of millions of players. Meaning the system will be automated, and it will be incredibly difficult to get a real human being to review your case. When someone reports someone for saying "I'll kill you," I highly doubt this automatic system is going to be able to discern whether this was an actual death threat or someone playing PvP.

This report system is absolutely going to be abused. I for one can't wait until server admins start getting banned because their players mass reported them for enforcing the server rules.

Hopefully in the near future there will be spigot plugins to catch the messages sent on the server side and spoof them so they can't be reported to Mojang's system. I wish PaperMC devs would consider making that a built in feature to paper, but judging by the response above that seems unlikely.

___________________________

Edit: Notwithstanding the fact that reddit's forums are far more representative of the community than this bubble, I'd encourage readers to check out the official Minecraft feedback forums: https://feedback.minecraft.net/hc/e...2w24a-?page=1#community_comment_6976938807949

All this to say, everyone is welcome to their own opinions. I for one will be finding a way to disable signed chat in its entirety on my server.
 
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_11

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IMO totally out of touch with everyone I've seen talking about this.
There's a very vocal minority against this, yes. Key word: minority.
Mojang doesn't have the staff to moderate the chats of millions of players.
According to BStats global stats for Bukkit-based, the peak concurrent players was 180K. Let's assume 50% of servers are running something other than Bukkit-based or have BStats disableld, so 360K players. Then, factor in that not every message wiill be reported, and it becomes reasonably easy to manually do.
I for one can't wait until server admins start getting banned because their players mass reported them for enforcing the server rules.
If admins don't break Mojang's rules then they won't get banned. If they do get banned, then we know for sure there will be an appeal system.
Hopefully in the near future there will be spigot plugins to catch the messages sent on the server side and spoof them so they can't be reported to Mojang's system. I wish PaperMC devs would consider making that a built in feature to paper, but judging by the response above that seems unlikely.
This can already be done with simple mojang-provided option in server.properties, although I'm expecting them to impose either a technical or legal (EULA) restriction on doing this, since it wouldn't make sense to have it be easily be disabled.
 
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Machine Maker

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I don't think its a platforms place to subvert this. This is easily something a chat plugin could handle using existing api. Not to mention that as of right now, all player messages (except /msg, /teammsg, /me, and /say) are transformed into system messages, losing their signature and the player associated with them. But when/if upstream (or if not them, paper) adds support for signed chat messages, a plugin can use existing API to transform a message into an unsigned player message or a system message.

But to circle back, I don't think a platform should implement this, instead a plugin can handle it. There are some side effects however, in that if mojang stops accepting unsigned player messages and you have to send all messages as system messages, the client-side player blocking system won't work, and anything that relied on knowing which player sent the message also wouldn't work since the message is no longer associated with a player.
 

MiniDigger

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you are jumping to conclusions and making assumptions not based in facts.
Mojang doesn't have the staff to moderate the chats of millions of players.
they don't need to do that, they only need to handle reports
in fact, they already take reports for user action right now and hand bans out right now. never heard any complains about that, so it seems to be catching the right people. all that is changing is making it more seamless and more secure.
Meaning the system will be automated
all indications point to manual, their wording on the changelogs and the strings in the snapshot point to that
it will be incredibly difficult to get a real human being to review your case
there has been a case review flow in place for years and I have never heard complains
When someone reports someone for saying "I'll kill you," I highly doubt this automatic system is going to be able to discern whether this was an actual death threat or someone playing PvP.
if they can't discern it, they will take no action obviously
This report system is absolutely going to be abused. I for one can't wait until server admins start getting banned because their players mass reported them for enforcing the server rules.
mass reports aren't an issue for manual systems. you just aggregate the reports and then evaluate them.
I wish PaperMC devs would consider making that a built in feature to paper, but judging by the response above that seems unlikely.
I am expressing my views here, however many think similar to me.

Also, its very clear, at least to me, that mojang will only act on the worst offenders, as outlined in their zero tolerance sections in the community guidelines (which I bet most people outraged about this have never even read...). Its about the child molesters, about the assholes spamming racial or homophobic slurs all over the place. Not something you want on your server anyways.

It's also worth noting that mojang involved a group of server owners and server developers very early in the process of getting this feature ready. they worked with us and implemented feedback.

If people would start to think logical again, the would be more inclined to agree with me, but then we would have no drama, so that can't happen.

also, PS, your name makes you loose all credibility. the concept of anarchy can't happen in a place that isn't isolated from laws, rules and guidelines. grow up.
 

EterNity

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Using reddit subs. a website that's frequently being called out as echo chamber, isn't really a great source of creditability when you try to claim "majority" of people that you talked to disagree with the upcoming changes. Loud vocal minority is playing strong here.

You are also hosting a game that's created by Mojang owned by Microsoft and you are authenticating using Microsft's account system, they have every right to ensure certain level of player experience. whether you agree or not, it's their game and their asset and you are using it per their user agreements.

As in how the resulting moderation would be like, it hasnt happen yet so I suggest you to stop the meaningless speculations.
 

TheSuperSquirrel

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Because Mojang has yet to lay out how exactly this system is supposed to work, what do you expect people are going to do but assume the worst? Apparently some of you have been privy to inside information for a long time, and that's great for you, but a lot of us were completely blindsided by the news that suddenly people can be banned from playing on our private servers without our say-so. Further, none of us insignificant peons know what might cause the bans or how long they might be for, aside from the vague direction of things going against the community guidelines, which can EVEN BE TYPING IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE IT READS LIKE YELLING, maybe! Probably not, but who knows because they haven't told us!

For those of us who have NO OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT IT, unlike you lucky staff members, we're left to just wonder what the heck might lead to a ban, how it might affect us, and so forth. Basically, it was downright irresponsible for Mojang to launch this system without warning and without documentation. A help article is on its way, though, so thank goodness for that. Sure would have been a shame if they'd made that first so people knew what the heck was going on!

Suffice to say everyone is making a lot of assumptions here, both good and bad. It's almost certainly not going to be as bad as some folks expect, and it's certainly not going to be some perfect moderation heaven where nothing goes wrong and no one has any complaints because nothing better has existed in the history of anything. I for one think that the player banning system is great for Realms, but should be opt-out for private servers. If I want a bunch of degenerates playing on my server that I personally host, that should be my choice, dangit!

MiniDigger wrote: not that any legitimate player has anything to fear, the only people that are are angry are scared about this because they have been terrorizing the community forever and rightfully fear finally having to face consequences for their actions.

"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear." You realize how creepy that sounds, right? That's been the justification for a lot of terrible things. I know Mojang isn't going to go all Secret Police on us, but c'mon! We need the details of what is and isn't bannable, time-frames, all of that, otherwise we're just left to hope that our actions are acceptable to our pixelated overlords.
 

MiniDigger

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I suggest you to read the latest RC post on the Minecraft website and the help post it linked. It will explain some of the issues you have.

Remember, Mojang is still building this system out, it's not released yet (you said it launched altho it's not in any release, snapshots are development versions and never represent the final product), they are still working on help posts to clarify stuff, so just chill a bit.
Raise concerns in a sane manner to Mojang and they can clarify stuff, but fighting this system is not gonna change anything, it's coming, nothing you can do about that.
 

TheSuperSquirrel

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Ah! If it's truly not been implemented yet then I was misinformed! And a Help Article, just in time. Thank you for the clarification, and I suspect Mojang has heard quite enough about this to know the messaging was botched. And thank you again for reminding us all of the inevitability of Mojang's will, may we forever be in awe of it.
 

Mondbrille

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As TheSuperSquirrel already wrote, it won't be super good or bad. Luckily mojang has now given some information, for example that the surrounding messages will be included to give some context. Also there will be within 3 hours after the release of paper tons of plugins, which simply cancel all player messages and send them as system messages.

A short story:

It's no secret, that TikTok is hosted by the chinese government (yeah, it's a company, but the government has a lot of control over chinese companies).
TikTok moderators have to check and categorize every single video uploaded to the platform. If the content is ok, they allow the video or can even push it. If the content is criticizing the chinese government, it won't be able to see in china or they even delete the video.
In my (and probably everyone elses) opinion this type of censorship is absolutely inappropriate, but that's not the point.

The moderators have way too much videos to check, so they only view the first few seconds of every video. Because of this, feroza aziz was able to make a public video, criticizing the chinese camps, where uyghurs are mistreated. Her video startet disguised as a beauty tutorial. If she immediately started ranting about the chinese camps, the video wouldn't made it through the moderation.

As a server admin, that's my personal fear. That there are not enough moderators, so they don't check it carefully and ban server admins, because some users reported them for enforcing the server rules.
 
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MiniDigger

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As TheSuperSquirrel already wrote, it won't be super good or bad. Luckily mojang has now given some information, for example that the surrounding messages will be included to give some context. Also there will be within 3 hours after the release of paper tons of plugins, which simply cancel all player messages and send them as system messages.

A short story:

It's no secret, that TikTok is hosted by the chinese government (yeah, it's a company, but the government has a lot of control over chinese companies).
TikTok moderators have to check and categorize every single video uploaded to the platform. If the content is ok, they allow the video or can even push it. If the content is criticizing the chinese government, it won't be able to see in china or they even delete the video.
In my (and probably everyone elses) opinion this type of censorship is absolutely catastrophic, but that's not the point.

The moderators have way too much videos to check, so they only view the first few seconds of every video. Because of this, feroza aziz was able to make a public video, criticizing the chinese camps, where uyghurs are mistreated. Her video startet disguised as a beauty tutorial. If she immediately started ranting about the chinese camps, the video wouldn't made it through the moderation.

As a server admin, that's my personal fear. That there are not enough moderators, so they don't check it carefully and ban server admins, because some users reported them for enforcing the server rules.
You are confusing censorship of information to banning hate crimes, but oh well.
 

collin

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yes.
however, in the future, the client might reject such messages, there is already a client setting that comes close to this.
fighting mojang is never a good idea, you will loose.
the decided that they want to improve the player safety (and I and many others agree with them), so we will see more work in this area, especially if people circumvent the system.

not that any legitimate player has anything to fear, the only people that are are angry are scared about this because they have been terrorizing the community forever and rightfully fear finally having to face consequences for their actions.
I don't mean this in a sardonic way -- I truly don't -- but do you earnestly believe that there is a negligible chance of false positive situations despite the existence of multiple categories that are extremely broad and vague?

If so, do you earnestly believe that an adult, playing on a private server with another adult, should be banned from multiplayer Minecraft for saying something like "wanna come over and smoke weed?"

The argument you are making is nearly identical to the thoroughly debunked "why should I support [privacy tool such as end-to-end encryption] if I have nothing to hide?"

To be honest, I am genuinely shocked to see this message coming from a Paper team lead. I am extremely grateful for the project and everyone who contributes to it. But after seeing this, I am also very concerned for its future.
 

MiniDigger

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To be honest, I am genuinely shocked to see this message coming from a Paper team lead. I am extremely grateful for the project and everyone who contributes to it. But after seeing this, I am also very concerned for its future.
That's the cool thing about a team, we all are individuals, we all have different opinions and we discuss stuff internally all the time. Nothing here reflects the position of the paper team, just my personal one, so you don't need to be concerned I guess, altho others think similar obviously.
I don't mean this in a sardonic way -- I truly don't -- but do you earnestly believe that there is a negligible chance of false positive situations despite the existence of multiple categories that are extremely broad and vague?
The categories have been clarified already, plus the important stuff is in the community guidelines (which have been in effect for ages)

If so, do you earnestly believe that an adult, playing on a private server with another adult, should be banned from multiplayer Minecraft for saying something like "wanna come over and smoke weed?"
I don't need to agree with every individual category to see the greater good Mojang is trying to achieve here. And again, reports include context, I highly doubt you gonna be moderated for that (but I obviously don't know, this is the stuff we need to talk with Mojang about, as a community)

The argument you are making is nearly identical to the thoroughly debunked "why should I support [privacy tool such as end-to-end encryption] if I have nothing to hide?"
I don't believe this is similar at all. Privacy is a right, being an asshole isn't. Plus this is about protecting the rights of minors too.
I was just commenting on the fact that most people that oppose this, happen to be the kinda invidividuals these rules are aimed at. Spouting slurs all other the place for example.
(Obviously this is only true for the sample size of people I interacted with but I engaged in discussions on various platforms like the Minecraft discord or twitter (which of course was exceptionally bad) and that was a pattern I noticed, the more vocal the person are against this, the more likely it is that I close their profile with disgust)
 

drewcification

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That's the cool thing about a team, we all are individuals, we all have different opinions and we discuss stuff internally all the time. Nothing here reflects the position of the paper team, just my personal one, so you don't need to be concerned I guess, altho others think similar obviously.

The categories have been clarified already, plus the important stuff is in the community guidelines (which have been in effect for ages)


I don't need to agree with every individual category to see the greater good Mojang is trying to achieve here. And again, reports include context, I highly doubt you gonna be moderated for that (but I obviously don't know, this is the stuff we need to talk with Mojang about, as a community)


I don't believe this is similar at all. Privacy is a right, being an asshole isn't. Plus this is about protecting the rights of minors too.
I was just commenting on the fact that most people that oppose this, happen to be the kinda invidividuals these rules are aimed at. Spouting slurs all other the place for example.
(Obviously this is only true for the sample size of people I interacted with but I engaged in discussions on various platforms like the Minecraft discord or twitter (which of course was exceptionally bad) and that was a pattern I noticed, the more vocal the person are against this, the more likely it is that I close their profile with disgust)
You're insanely out of touch.
Mojang shouldn't be banning people from servers owned by anyone but themselves. Period. obvious exception for illegal stuff like CP, but thats it.
"Hate speech" should not get someone banned from all servers. That should be up to server owners.

Some servers like anarchy ones dont ban people for slurs, so why should people not be allowed to play on that server if they say a slur?

Its about the child molesters, about the assholes spamming racial or homophobic slurs all over the place. Not something you want on your server anyways.
One of these things is the worst crime someon can commit and should result in a ban from MC entirely (and life in prison), the other is saying something you dont like. Theres a MAJOR damn difference and the fact that you don't see that is insane.

Why should someone be banned from playing on a server they or their friend hosts because they said something that isnt the main stream opinion? With a hate speech rule, that will happen.

For you to say this is a vocal minority who have concerns, you're delusional, and you being part of the team behind this project gives me great concern for the project's future.

My server, my rules. Your server, your rules. simple as that, if i'm paying or using my hardware to host, i control what's on it.

MS has proven they refuse to even give REASONS as to why they ban someone on bedrock edition, i have absolutely no faith in moderation.
 
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MiniDigger

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One of these things is the worst crime someon can commit and should result in a ban from MC entirely (and life in prison), the other is saying something you dont like. Theres a MAJOR damn difference and the fact that you don't see that is insane.
Here in the EU, both are crimes. Mojang is a EU company. It's not saying something I don't like, it's violating the human decency of the people affected, which happens to be the first article of my, the German, constitution and should be protected over all.
 
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electronicboy

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Mojangs platform, mojangs rules. I disagree with some of the stuff, but, am actually doing my best to speak to people to find some common middleground here.
The changes mojang are doing make it viable to actually act on things such as predators, something which the community hardly seems goes a year without somebody being caught up in it.

I agree with the overall thing, mojang for years has not been able to contain certain widespread issues within their community which is becoming a legislation issue over the next few years, as well as a brand issue, not to mention a protection issue.

People don't seem to be going much out of their way to support this, but, it's not like there seems to be much of a large standing against it, the official thread only post has 120-odd comments, admincraft posts, highest I saw with comments was like 50 and 200 upvotes, hardly close to any form of a majority. as I keep saying, however, use the feedback form that they've got. Mojang likely ain't going to revert this, they're catching up with the rest of the gaming world in terms of the tooling they're expected to have to moderate their platform, people would do sooner to try to use the applicable places that they've mentioned to try to get their points across
 

TheSuperSquirrel

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I was just commenting on the fact that most people that oppose this, happen to be the kinda invidividuals these rules are aimed at. Spouting slurs all other the place for example.
From what I've seen (and I'll admit that my circles are probably different from your circles), most of the folks opposing this are doing so because they have a private server and they don't want Mojang moderating it. I think it's mostly a privacy/personal space issue. For example, based on the comments (and votes on said comments) on the Ars Technica article about this, people are genuinely concerned about Mojang having the ability to exercise control over who is and isn't allowed on their server. Of course they also recognize that in using a Microsoft login and the associated authentication, they're already ceding some control to Mojang/MS.

That said, I think a lot of this uproar could have been avoided if they'd announced it further ahead of time, provided details ahead of time, and not just sprung it on everyone in a pre-release (meaning it's coming VERY SOON) with precious little information publicly available at the time of the announcement. At least here in the US most of us nerdy folks don't trust corporations to do anything right, or even keep their word. In the EU you have a lot more protections, but here it feels like they're always doing something evil, and we're always on the losing end of it. So yes, myself and others around me immediately assumed the worst, because the worst just keeps happening. Sure, some folks are always going to be angry at any change, but I for one wouldn't have been nearly as freaked out if I knew the details of what the heck was going on from the get go! As the details are now out, I'm not really concerned beyond just a slight nagging feeling of, "Oh jeez, here's another huge soulless company encroaching on my space!" I'm afraid I can't help that part. They're just so big! And so soulless.

I still want an opt-out for private servers. That'd make me feel a lot better, even though I can't imagine I'd ever use it. xD (Yes, MiniDigger, I know that's not how it works and an opt-out isn't coming any time soon whether I like it or not.)
 
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Mondbrille

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Mojangs platform, mojangs rules.
It's not. Mojang is the manufacturer, but they don't host private servers (except for realms).

If you ride a bus, who has the legal right to kick you out of it? The bus manufacturer or the operating company? Is the bus manufacturer legally responsible for not preventing you from insulting and bothering others? No, it's the operating company, represented by the bus driver.

But with this system the bus manufacturer is not only able to ban you from a single bus, he's also able to ban you from every bus in the world.
 

electronicboy

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It's literally mojangs platform, you are using their Auth services and all that, and bound by the terms you signed, and agreed to, when you purchased your account.
 
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EterNity

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It's not. Mojang is the manufacturer, but they don't host private servers (except for realms).

If you ride a bus, who has the legal right to kick you out of it? The bus manufacturer or the operating company? Is the bus manufacturer legally responsible for not preventing you from insulting and bothering others? No, it's the operating company, represented by the bus driver.

But with this system the bus manufacturer is not only able to ban you from a single bus, he's also able to ban you from every bus in the world.
You must never ride a bus in your life... saying anything outlined in the official Mojang guideline in a bus in any developed country will 100% get you kicked off the bus...

Regardless, you are completely wrong on your assessment as electronicboy had already pointed out above me.

I suggest you to re-read the official page again <https://help.minecraft.net/hc/en-us/articles/7149823936781> and review the agreement you made when you created your Minecraft account.
 

Mondbrille

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saying anything outlined in the official Mojang guideline in a bus in any developed country will 100% get you kicked off the bus...
absolutely correct, but who kicks you out of the bus? The driver or the bus manufacturer?

I agree with mojang. Hate speech, insulting and disgracing ohers is an absolute no-go and should be penalized. I'm only not agreeing with the fact, that mojang is the one deciding how someone will be penalized, if it's happened on someones private server.

I accept mojangs decision, although i'm not happy with it.
 

Makersgrace

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Here in the EU, both are crimes. Mojang is a EU company. It's not saying something I don't like, it's violating the human decency of the people affected, which happens to be the first article of my, the German, constitution and should be protected over all.
If the German constitution is so important to you than you should definitely know that your "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear." - mentality was and is the foundation of every dictatorships constitution.
Also, its very clear, at least to me, that mojang will only act on the worst offenders, as outlined in their zero tolerance sections in the community guidelines (which I bet most people outraged about this have never even read...). Its about the child molesters, about the assholes spamming racial or homophobic slurs all over the place. Not something you want on your server anyways.

If you have read Mojangs new rules once, you should know that the opposite is the case. You can get banned for vague things like "Profanity" and things like "Exposing Personal Information" which are completely dependent from the context of your Server. For example if you have a private Server with you friends, why shouldnt you be allowed to talk about real life things which include personal information. Another questionable rule is "real life threads" since you just cannot decide for sure if a thread is meant in game or real life related. And the list of stupid vague rules goes on and on.
And to come back to your example, I am now playing Minecraft for 11 years on Servers and I have never seen a single player who tried to molest a child or spammed racial/ homophobic slurs. And if someone would do that, he would be banned by the server staff. But this problem just does not exist in a relevant scale in Minecraft and is nothing more than a shady excuse for Microsoft to tighten their grip on our privacy. The only thing they want to achieve with this is gaining absolute control over the playerbase and maximizing their profit one day buy collecting our data and so on.

yes.
however, in the future, the client might reject such messages, there is already a client setting that comes close to this.
fighting mojang is never a good idea, you will loose.
the decided that they want to improve the player safety (and I and many others agree with them), so we will see more work in this area, especially if people circumvent the system.

not that any legitimate player has anything to fear, the only people that are are angry are scared about this because they have been terrorizing the community forever and rightfully fear finally having to face consequences for their actions.
Its just not the case that "many others agree with them". Every single Minecraft Player I know in real life or online, every Minecraft content creator who commented on that topic and over 95% of the Minecraft community in the internet are highly against this.

In the end there is just not a single reason for Microsoft to become encroaching and entforce their rules on a single server which is not owned by them. My Server - my rules, as long as they do not violate the law. If you want to have your server rules dictated and their enforcement carried out by Microsoft I will be fine with that as long as every server who doesnt want to have anything to do with this surveillance policy must have the option to just not be part of that system.
 
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mbaxter

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If you have read Mojangs new rules once, you should know that the opposite is the case. You can get banned for vague things like "Profanity"

It's clear that you only read Mojang's released info once, and didn't check things again after they updated it. You put way too much effort into a post built on information nearly a week out of date.
 
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sulu

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Just to be completely clear, you can do whatever you want with your server. It is your server. You can achieve this with plugins. Paper won't outright disable this feature for the sake of disabling it or provide a config to do so. However, this can easily be done with a plugin and I'm sure one or more will spring up.

It is worth noting that currently, this feature will not work on Paper servers as all chat is sent as system messages. However, this won't be the case forever.
 
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MiniDigger

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Cologne, Germany
benndorf.dev
And to come back to your example, I am now playing Minecraft for 11 years on Servers and I have never seen a single player who tried to molest a child or spammed racial/ homophobic slurs.
great! thats lucky. I talk to a bunch of server owners that have to read messages by child molesters and I don't wish that anyone has to go thru that ever. but the sad reality is that this is happening on many many servers. they get banned on one and move on to the next. mojang is (finally) trying to put a stop to that.
maximizing their profit one day buy collecting our data and so on.
what kinda data does this new system collect from you that is worth a penny? lol
 

Mondbrille

New member
The only thing they want to achieve with this is gaining absolute control over the playerbase and maximizing their profit one day buy collecting our data and so on.
Sorry, but i don't think to do this with a chat report system is the way to go. Mojang and/or Microsoft have hundreds of better options to collect data.

I accept mojangs and papers decision. A nice touch of the paper team is, that they won't prevent you from disabling the report function with plugins. So thanks for that.

Even 1.19.1 isn't out yet, i already coded my server the way, that every player message is sent as a system message (just cancel AsyncChatEvent and broadcast Player#displayName() and AsyncChatEvent#message()).

Some day mojang might change the way this system works and also allows to report or include system messages. But i don't think this will happen anytime soon.